Author Topic: The end of BlueVestment?  (Read 31176 times)

BruiserB

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The end of BlueVestment?
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2014, 05:33:50 PM »
Sounds good.....no reason to complain yet.  But if/when Lending Club makes it impossible for the third parties to continue, then they will hear from me.  I understand their lawyers want them to be protected, but they need to work with the third parties to ensure a secure way of doing business.  It would be nice if they would address the deficiencies of the API so that it wouldn't be necessary to give login credentials in addition to the API key.  That would go a long way to closing any security holes.  Also I thought the agreement for API access I signed already gave up a most of my right to recourse against LC.  Lawyers run amok as already stated.....


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lascott

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Re: The end of BlueVestment?
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2014, 05:51:21 PM »
Also I thought the agreement for API access I signed already gave up a most of my right to recourse against LC. 

API: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5lA7Kfp45ULWGtGVE1kSnJRTHM/edit?usp=sharing
Tools I use: (main) BlueVestment: https://www.bluevestment.com/app/pricing + https://www.interestradar.com/ , (others) Lending Robot referral link: https://www.lendingrobot.com/ref/scott473/  & Peercube referral code: DFVA9Y

BruiserB

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The end of BlueVestment?
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2014, 09:14:33 PM »
Exactly.....all kinds of disclaiming and harmless-holding was already agreed to by me.  :-)

So if I want to give my API key to a third party site, that's my business, and LC should not be putting further requirements on the third parties.


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BlueVestment

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Re: The end of BlueVestment?
« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2014, 07:10:55 PM »
Exactly.....all kinds of disclaiming and harmless-holding was already agreed to by me.  :-)

So if I want to give my API key to a third party site, that's my business, and LC should not be putting further requirements on the third parties.


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Thanks to this entire thread, the LC VP of Retail Investing called me up yesterday to discuss the issues. I'm cautiously optimistic from his attitude of wanting to work with us (the automated community as a whole) and wanting to move forward with a more acceptable solution. For what it's worth, Lending Club's concern is largely this: automated investors are taking over a large part of Lending Club's users where many users are seldom interacting with the Lending Club site other than the summary page. LC is realizing that the "Lending Club Experience" is now wearing the facade of BlueVestment and other third-partiers. They are worried about hard-won LC customers being influenced negatively by what may now become the defacto investment experience provided by us third-party guys.

I get it. It makes sense. But there needs to be some wiggle room so individuals can build up their businesses and make commitments without worrying about the Sword of Damocles hanging over our heads. I can't speak for everyone but I can say that while I feel comfortable enough with the existing relationships I have with the LC team, whoever comes after that may have a very strict opinion of the agreement. So for the moment, Bryce and I will continue to work together (when he's not busy telling me to calm down) and come up with some language that can be more universally accepted.

Fred93

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Re: The end of BlueVestment?
« Reply #19 on: August 23, 2014, 09:23:32 PM »
Appreciate your efforts.

When I interacted with them a few weeks back, I emphasized that their best course of action is to work together with the ecosystem, instead of wage war with it. 

lascott

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Re: The end of BlueVestment?
« Reply #20 on: August 23, 2014, 10:36:04 PM »
Exactly.....all kinds of disclaiming and harmless-holding was already agreed to by me.  :-)
So if I want to give my API key to a third party site, that's my business, and LC should not be putting further requirements on the third parties.
<snip>
For what it's worth, Lending Club's concern is largely this: automated investors are taking over a large part of Lending Club's users where many users are seldom interacting with the Lending Club site other than the summary page.
<snip>
A little confusing aspect is that (underlined part) they have this graphic on their summary page, campaigned to my LC email via pushing their "automated investing" (renamed from PRIME to boot), and provide a 30 second head start to their "automated investing".  It is also doing this balancing act depending on your available cash level compared to others.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2014, 09:30:39 AM by lascott »
Tools I use: (main) BlueVestment: https://www.bluevestment.com/app/pricing + https://www.interestradar.com/ , (others) Lending Robot referral link: https://www.lendingrobot.com/ref/scott473/  & Peercube referral code: DFVA9Y

BruiserB

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The end of BlueVestment?
« Reply #21 on: August 23, 2014, 11:24:47 PM »


Thanks to this entire thread, the LC VP of Retail Investing called me up yesterday to discuss the issues. I'm cautiously optimistic from his attitude of wanting to work with us (the automated community as a whole) and wanting to move forward with a more acceptable solution. For what it's worth, Lending Club's concern is largely this: automated investors are taking over a large part of Lending Club's users where many users are seldom interacting with the Lending Club site other than the summary page. LC is realizing that the "Lending Club Experience" is now wearing the facade of BlueVestment and other third-partiers. They are worried about hard-won LC customers being influenced negatively by what may now become the defacto investment experience provided by us third-party guys.

I get it. It makes sense. But there needs to be some wiggle room so individuals can build up their businesses and make commitments without worrying about the Sword of Damocles hanging over our heads. I can't speak for everyone but I can say that while I feel comfortable enough with the existing relationships I have with the LC team, whoever comes after that may have a very strict opinion of the agreement. So for the moment, Bryce and I will continue to work together (when he's not busy telling me to calm down) and come up with some language that can be more universally accepted.

The way I view it, Lending Club provides the marketplace, and the third party developers bring different tools to interact with the marketplace.  Much like the NYSE or NASDAQ provide the stock exchange, but investors can choose from various brokers ranging from discount to full-service to interact with the exchanges.

If they realistically want to get people to use their automated investing, then they really need to allow for more sophisticated filters and allow a client to have several filters active simultaneously.  They wouldn't ever be able to directly offer something like Bryce's P2P-Picks or LendingRobot's Expected Returns filters as these would basically be an admission that their own scoring model is flawed and would be in conflict with their belief that there are no "best loans" available for picking.  Maybe this will become true over time as they continue to refine their modeling and scoring, but for now I do think many of us will attest to seeing improved performance by using simple filters as well as the more complex proprietary algorithms.

I do hope that they will realize that the third parties are in fact bringing more people and dollars to the marketplace.  I was nearly ready to give up on LC at the end of last year, but since finding the third party tools available I have instead more than doubled my investment in Lending Club this year.  If I can't use these tools, I will go away and invest elsewhere.


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thezfunk

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Re: The end of BlueVestment?
« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2014, 02:20:18 AM »
I am going to channel my inner 'Core' here and say that this development has confirmed the suspicion I have had for awhile that they don't like these 3rd party sites and would prefer they don't exist.  They don't have to outright ban them, just make their lives so miserable they quit on their own.

If I can't use what I want to invest how I want to invest then I will pull out of LC.  I can be treated like a second rate investor somewhere else.

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rawraw

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Re: The end of BlueVestment?
« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2014, 08:08:32 AM »
Thanks to this entire thread, the LC VP of Retail Investing called me up yesterday to discuss the issues. I'm cautiously optimistic from his attitude of wanting to work with us (the automated community as a whole) and wanting to move forward with a more acceptable solution. For what it's worth, Lending Club's concern is largely this: automated investors are taking over a large part of Lending Club's users where many users are seldom interacting with the Lending Club site other than the summary page. LC is realizing that the "Lending Club Experience" is now wearing the facade of BlueVestment and other third-partiers. They are worried about hard-won LC customers being influenced negatively by what may now become the defacto investment experience provided by us third-party guys.
Which is why they should work with you guys.  I hope they realize that many of us wouldn't have the same balances or even an account without your services.  The stuff is just too burdensome to do manually at large volumes.  I still expect they are going to buy one of you guys.

BlueVestment

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Re: The end of BlueVestment?
« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2014, 08:12:57 AM »
Thanks to this entire thread, the LC VP of Retail Investing called me up yesterday to discuss the issues. I'm cautiously optimistic from his attitude of wanting to work with us (the automated community as a whole) and wanting to move forward with a more acceptable solution. For what it's worth, Lending Club's concern is largely this: automated investors are taking over a large part of Lending Club's users where many users are seldom interacting with the Lending Club site other than the summary page. LC is realizing that the "Lending Club Experience" is now wearing the facade of BlueVestment and other third-partiers. They are worried about hard-won LC customers being influenced negatively by what may now become the defacto investment experience provided by us third-party guys.
Which is why they should work with you guys.  I hope they realize that many of us wouldn't have the same balances or even an account without your services.  The stuff is just too burdensome to do manually at large volumes.  I still expect they are going to buy one of you guys.

I go back and forth one whether or not someone will be bought out. At the moment I'm not holding my breath for it. None of the services out there provide any feature that either A) LC couldn't easily build out themselves if so inclined or B) Is a market they want to get into (such as pick recommendations). If LC were to buy out one of the services they would arguably spend the same amount or more time handling the integration compared to just building the product out on their own. In my professional career I've played the whole purchase vs develop game and everyone grossly underestimates integration costs.

rawraw

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Re: The end of BlueVestment?
« Reply #25 on: August 24, 2014, 08:22:05 AM »
Now it makes sense why they are pushing automated investing so heavily, though.  You have them scared Nathan :)

SBryantMS

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Re: The end of BlueVestment?
« Reply #26 on: August 24, 2014, 02:37:15 PM »
Have you considered the alternative:  Buy out the best Third party tool and shut it down.  Non-compete with the original principals. Wait six months and repeat. 

wiseclerk_com

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Re: The end of BlueVestment?
« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2014, 03:56:08 PM »
Have you considered the alternative:  Buy out the best Third party tool and shut it down.  Non-compete with the original principals. Wait six months and repeat.

If closing third party tools would be the goal -  which I do not know - then I think it would be much easier to use the legal terms to restrict the API usage that much that it becomes unattractive/undoable for the 3rd party tools to continue.
The fallout would be different. If the tool providers discontinue the tools, then the tool users would be dissatisfied but after all the tool provider discontinued it. If on the other hand LC bought the tool and then shut it out the dissatisfaction would be directed at LC directly.

Overall I agree with rawraw and
Quote
The way I view it, Lending Club provides the marketplace, and the third party developers bring different tools to interact with the marketplace.  Much like the NYSE or NASDAQ provide the stock exchange, but investors can choose from various brokers ranging from discount to full-service to interact with the exchanges.
however we have yet to see the first p2p lending marketplace that fully embraces and encourages an indepently developed ecosystem upon a provided API.

And I agree with BlueVestment that the spelled out terms would not instirr confidence in me would I run a 3rd party tool, even if LC backs off to a less strict version. After all they can always restrict API access at a later time should they change their opinion.

I publish the http://www.p2p-banking.com blog

BlueVestment

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Re: The end of BlueVestment?
« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2014, 03:59:37 PM »
Have you considered the alternative:  Buy out the best Third party tool and shut it down.  Non-compete with the original principals. Wait six months and repeat.

If closing third party tools would be the goal -  which I do not know - then I think it would be much easier to use the legal terms to restrict the API usage that much that it becomes unattractive/undoable for the 3rd party tools to continue.
The fallout would be different. If the tool providers discontinue the tools, then the tool users would be dissatisfied but after all the tool provider discontinued it. If on the other hand LC bought the tool and then shut it out the dissatisfaction would be directed at LC directly.

Overall I agree with rawraw and
Quote
The way I view it, Lending Club provides the marketplace, and the third party developers bring different tools to interact with the marketplace.  Much like the NYSE or NASDAQ provide the stock exchange, but investors can choose from various brokers ranging from discount to full-service to interact with the exchanges.
however we have yet to see the first p2p lending marketplace that fully embraces and encourages an indepently developed ecosystem upon a provided API.

And I agree with BlueVestment that the spelled out terms would not instirr confidence in me would I run a 3rd party tool, even if LC backs off to a less strict version. After all they can always restrict API access at a later time should they change their opinion.

This is great insight. I would absolutely agree that if shutting down 3rd party tools were the goal, there are better ways to do it than buying people out and providing non-competes.

Fred93

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Re: The end of BlueVestment?
« Reply #29 on: August 25, 2014, 04:32:52 PM »
I believe the explanation is much simpler.

The folks at LC are largely ignorant of the ecosystem.  They don't understand or appreciate the 3rd party sites.  How can this be?  Well first off, they aren't users of them, as we are. 

So they don't see the benefits, but do discuss among themselves and their lawyers fantasy fears.

So I believe first we have to overcome the ignorance. 

One of the things I suggested to them is that they form a group of API users, with whom they discuss problems, concerns, website changes, policy changes, etc.  I suggested this could be done with a mailing list or forum.  This was just an idea for a way to get a dialog going.  Such a dialog could help to educate internal LC people about the ecosystem.